Alua Arthur Comes Home

Cold Open

Recently, I got the chance to chat with my dear friend and world renowned Death Doula Alua Arthur. And I told her about something that happened when my dad first got sick.

Shoshana: I was thinking back to when my dad was first diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and his partner Joanna, who'd heard you speak, you know, several times. She sat me down and she asked me if we should bring in a death doula.

Alua: Wow.

Shoshana Chat: It was a sunny day. Right after he got diagnosed, and she said, you know, I, I've been to your end well conferences.

End Well is the nonprofit I founded in 2017, focused on making the end of life a part of life.

Shoshana Chat: I've really been doing my own research. You know, is it time to call a death doula?

Much like how birth doulas help people prepare for and experience childbirth, death doulas help people and their families prepare for and experience the end of life.

Shoshana Chat: And I just chuckled because it was awkward. And I, I was also really like, happy and proud that she, you know, had taken important information from, from End Well and thought about it.

This is a moment I’ve thought about often. Because Joanna was right. We should have called a death doula. But when Joanna suggested it, so soon after my dad’s diagnosis, I just thought it was too early.

Shoshana Chat: It was one of those things where I just imagined it would go differently and that we'd have the opportunity down the road to, to do that, I think the experience would've been so much easier for all of us had we. Had someone who was there just to, you know, lend a hand when things were getting hectic in the home, or, give us the ability to sort of pause and say like. Let's just take a beat here on what's going on. It's stressful and emotional. I think that could have been so grounding for all of us.

But in the end, we just ran out of time. I told Alua about all of this.

Shoshana: So when would've been the right time to make that call?

Alua: Now. For anybody who's starting to think about mortality. In any case, if you're absolutely healthy and you don't know what it is that you're gonna be dying of one day, if you start to think about your death, now is a good time to call a death doula. Get the conversation going. Start thinking about the things that you need to collect. Start thinking about your body and your mortality and your relationship with aging. And your relationship with surrender and vulnerability and your doctors and your care team and who you rely upon, like, now is the right time for everyone, disease or not. Now is the right time.

Shoshana: I should have just called you.

Alua: Yes, I would've been there.

Alua and I met in person for the first time around 10 years ago. I was getting ready to give a keynote at a hospice event in southern California. And before I went on stage, I saw a woman walking towards me in the hallway. I recognized her immediately.

Shoshana Chat: Even though we'd never met in person, it was like seeing this old friend that I was just so excited to get to be with.

Shoshana: Like, I think we'd maybe talked on the phone before or somehow, like we knew of each other for sure. Immediately like ran and gave you a big hug and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so excited to meet you.

Alua: In the flesh finally. It was pretty great.

Shoshana: Yes.

Since that day, I’ve crossed paths with Alua many, many times. We’ve become friends. And she’s an incredible force, working to train more death doulas so that everyone who wants help can find it. She’s one of the most vocal and visible people out there talking about the end of life. I’ve been lucky enough to welcome her to the End Well stage more than once.

Alua at End Well: Ah, what a treat. Wow. We're here. Y'all we're here.

She made a splash on the interview circuit, supporting the release of her New York Times bestselling book…Briefly Perfectly Human

KATU: Briefly, Perfectly Human, what does that mean to you?

Alua: That means that our lives are really brief, it’s kinda the standard contract of being born.

And Alua is an amazing, inspiring speaker. Here she is at TED.

Alua at TED: I wanna die at sunset. I wanna watch the sky change and turn orange and pink and purple as day dives in tonight, I want to hear the wind fluttering through the leaves and smell very faintly, no chola, amber incense, but very faintly because scent can be tough on a dying body.

Shoshana: So in the midst of all of your writing, your speaking, your traveling, you're, your teaching, doing all these incredible things. What's, what's your favorite part of it? Like what do you like to do the most?

Alua: I like to come home.

Shoshana: Hmm.

Alua: I really like coming home. I love being out there and talking to the people and hearing back from people either because I got to sign a bunch of books afterward and I heard how death is impacting people in their lives. Um, or I'm on stage and I get the feedback directly from the audience by what has impacted them, I love the energetic loop of being on stage. But all of that, I love it when I get to come back home and I am sleeping in my bed and in pulling my underwear out of a drawer that I recognize. Um, and I get to be in my routines I love to balance it. 'Cause this work isn't all of it. Like, this work just points me back at, well, what is your life? You know? And so, being in my life, it's what's feeling really, really good right now.

On the first season of Before We Go, we focused on my story -- my father’s cancer, the unexpected diagnosis that put my own health at risk, and the path it set me on to search for meaning, purpose, and clarity in the face of it all.

But this season, we're doing something a little different. We’re in conversation with people from all walks of life, exploring how we live alongside mortality.

I wanted to start the season with Alua, so that she could share her journey to becoming a death doula, how she walks with dying people and their families, and how doing this work has changed her life…for the better.

I'm so grateful to get to be like in the thick of human ning with really rad humans. Like I work with amazing people. I get to party with incredible deathly people. The community of death folks is like the most interesting, most fun. We're always up to some weird shit and it's just, it's just great. It's just, it's fun. It's big, it's huge. It, I think ultimately this is the way that I'm crafting a life that I will feel comfortable leaving when it's time.

I’m Dr. Shoshana Ungerleider and this is Before We Go. Today’s episode: Alua Arthur Comes Home.

FIRST AD BREAK

Act 1

Shoshana: I wanna rewind a little bit, and I know that in 2012 you took a life changing trip to Cuba. Why were you there and how did that trip change your life?

Alua: I was in Cuba. Well, it's hard to answer why I was in Cuba, to be honest with you. I just followed an instinct. I'd followed a series of breadcrumbs and serendipity that got me there

Alua was in her early thirties. She was a lawyer, working at The Legal Aid Foundation of Los Angeles when she became what she describes as severely clinically depressed.

Alua: And during that depression I took a leave of absence and the breadcrumbs popped up and I kept following my intuition 'cause I had nothing else to go on at that point in time. I was looking for answers about why I felt so sad and lost and hopeless and couldn't figure out my way in life. And I ended up in Cuba and, and. You know, only in retrospect can I see how serendipitous it all was and that my life took a solid left turn after getting to Cuba. But at the time, I would've told you I was just going to, um, listen to some music and drink some room roam around.

Shoshana: So what happened? What happened in Cuba?

Alua: Well, I wandered around a lot and I drank some rum, went on long runs, and I met a fellow traveler. On the bus, a woman named Jessica who was traveling to see the top six places in the world she wanted to see before she died because she had uterine cancer.

Alua: We rode the bus together for 14 hours. And during those 14 hours, it just kind of opened my eyes to somebody about my age who was grappling with mortality and also how isolated she felt because anytime she'd talk about her ideas about death, people would tell her to focus on hope and healing and said, and not to think about her potential death from this disease. And it, it unsettled me. It made me really sad that something that she would eventually face for certain. Maybe not as a result of her disease, but just at one point in her life that people didn't make space for. And I realized how little space I'd made for it in my own life.

So Alua returned from Cuba and had the idea that she wanted to make more space for the end of life -- both for herself and for others. But finding her path wasn't easy.

Alua: Not at all. Finding my path was circuitous. Sometimes I think I'm still finding it honestly. Uh, after Cuba, I applied to. Death and spirituality psychology programs. I applied for PhDs.

Alua knew that her new path had something to do with taking care of people in and around the end of life.

Alua: I talked to everybody I knew who was involved in end of life care in some capacity. I talked to funeral directors and nurses and EMTs and just anyone to see what they were doing in death care and nothing really seemed to fit. Uh, so during that time while I was reading everything I could get my hands on and talking to anybody who would talk to me about death, uh, my brother-in-law, Peter St. John became ill.

So Alua moved to New York to support Peter, her sister and their daughter. But she never thought that Peter would die. He was too young. And he was healthy…except for the cancer.

Alua: He was sick for about four months before the doctor said that there was nothing more they could do to treat him. They didn't say he was dying. They just said they couldn't treat him anymore.

Shoshana: What does that even mean? We can't treat you anymore.

There’s always more we can do to care for patients.

Alua: It was so clinical. It was, it was a bit robotic. It was like, well, here's a body and here's medicine. And we applied medicine to the body and the medicine isn't working. And logically, you know, that that means that the body will not recover from this illness, which means that he will die. But for somebody who so desperately wanted her brother-in-law to live, like, I couldn't even conceive of him not living much longer. It was just hard to understand. It took a while until it was like we are at the end of his life. Like it's, it's time, it's time.

Shoshana: At one point I think you've said it was clear to you that your brother-in-law was dying, but no one was talking about it. How did you decide to be the first to say it out loud?

Alua: Well, Shoshana, I mean, I, I think, you know, me know well enough at this point to know that sometimes I have a hard time. Not saying the thing that's most in my throat, or it's sitting on my mind. And you know, a lot of times I wish I did have more of a filter when it comes to things like that, but in this case, I didn't. And it, it seemed to me it was pressing, it was necessary. Peter and I would talk about it, but when anybody else had come in the room, he'd kind of shut up about it. And so I followed his lead. It was confusing, it felt. Kind of disingenuous, but also understanding that it was such a big conversation. You know, I also didn't wanna be the one to say, Hey, y'all, Peter's dying. Can you see that? Because that also seemed like a really terrible position to be in.

Shoshana: Yeah. Why do you think his doctors, his care team, weren't forthcoming about that?

Alua: <sigh> Big sigh and exhale. I wish that the medical care professionals in Peter's case, and I am gonna speak very generally and broadly across the board, had a lot more education on how to talk to people about death. That they spent more time thinking about their immortality that folks were taught to. Sit with the hard questions. I think when a human, let alone a doctor is constantly faced with death themselves, it makes it easier to then to start talking about it. But we have to first be willing to look at our own. I think in some cases medical care folks are also tasked with the idea of saving a life and amusing air quotes around the idea of saving, because I don't even know what that means. Like we cannot save a life, one will die. We can apply medicine to bodies the best that we can, but at some point it just won't work anymore. And I think it makes some folks feel really powerless when they can't save a life.

In medicine, we’re taught to fight—to do everything we can to prolong life. But that often comes with an unspoken message: that death is a failure. That if someone dies, we didn’t do enough. So it’s no surprise that many clinicians struggle to name what’s happening, even when it’s clear. We avoid the conversation, hoping to protect people from pain. But in doing so, we often rob them—and their families—of the chance to prepare, to be present, and to say what matters most.

Shoshana: And so was Peter ever on hospice? Did he receive….

Alua: No. He got a referral for hospice on Friday afternoon and you know, you call a business on Friday afternoon and it's like, well, call us back on Monday. And that's kind of what we got. He had his death rally on Sunday night, and he fell asleep on Sunday and he didn't wake up again .

Hearing stories like these make me so sad. And there's a million of them. In most cases, we refer to hospice way too late. In the U.S., the median length of stay on hospice is just 18 days. That means most people receive this kind of support for less than three weeks before they die—barely enough time to settle in, let alone have meaningful support for what’s ahead. It happens all the time. But when it happened to Alua's family, she found herself even more determined to DO something about it.

Alua: I was at Peter's feet through his dying, and I really wanted somebody to be there. I. Somebody else who we could ask questions to, somebody who would tell us that we were doing as best as we could. Somebody who could acknowledge that it really sucked somebody who had knowledge and resources and who was compassionate. Just somebody who was present and I didn't find anybody. I couldn't find anybody. Or I'd call one place and they'd say, well, did you try hospice yet? Or maybe you should try the funeral home, or, I just kept getting bounced around, like I just needed a point person to answer the questions. I was in the midst of grief, you know, even as he was dying, and certainly after he died, and grief brain is so foggy, it was hard for me to think through what we needed to do.

Alua: I just kind of took a moment and I let grief wash over me and do what it will. And what happened was that I got really purposeful and kind of angry that the one thing that I wanted, I couldn't find, I. You know, I just wanted somebody desperately to be there with us and so I decided to make it for myself. I started researching again, anything I could, trying to find out what kind of role that was. And when I talked to a therapist of mine, about this idea that I had, she'd known somebody who'd been to an intro program for death midwifery.

The course was taught by an organization called Sacred Crossings in Los Angeles. It was three intensive weekends over three months. Alua attended, and she learned a lot about how to offer support to a dying person and their family. But for Alua, it wasn’t enough. So she kept researching.

Alua: I started looking at all the other areas that still needed some attention, like all the pre-planning stuff, all the things that would've been helpful to have. When Peter was still alive, to try to gather those now. So I built a practice that looks like caring for people right at the end of life, but also supporting people and preparing for it long before they get there, when they're still healthy and willing to do so.

Alua didn't just take the three month course. She did a lot of what you might call extra credit. She took a job volunteering at an estate planning office to learn about wills and trusts. She took another job working at an alternative funeral home. She volunteered at a hospice, where she learned about the bureaucracy and regulations of the hospice industry.

Alua: It was probably almost about a year and a half before I finally hung out a shingle and said, I'm a death doula. Because up until then I thought, well, I don't know anything about this. There's still so much to learn. But I recognize that some of that also is. Well first my desire to want to know everything I can, which I never will. I blame my Gemini brain. Um, but some of that also just being a bit of an imposter syndrome. You know, death is so big. It's, it's aside from a person's birth, the second biggest moment in their lives, and it's impossible not to feel small in its face. And some of that was, that just me feeling small in the face of death and somebody's dying.

Alua had experienced what it was like to need this kind of support when her brother in law was dying. But when she did finally open her business, she found that finding clients wasn't as easy as she thought it would be.

Alua: I made meetings with a bunch of hospices and I made a pretty little deck, and I brought a bunch of brochures and I wanted to tell them all about what we did, and I expected them all to say yes. Amazing. Now how can we work with you? All of them, all 77 of them, said, no, thank you. We don't need it. We've got this. And I was crushed. Crushed, but it didn't stop me. Obviously. I kept going and made it to a couple that eventually said yes and opened the door and let me in.

Shoshana: What do you remember about the first time that you met with a dying person as a death doula? Were you nervous? Were you excited? Like, what was it like?

Alua: I was very nervous and very excited, and I still am nervous and excited. Anytime somebody invites me and I'm like, Ooh, wow. Wow, this is such a big deal. And I am here. I think it's helpful also to treat each death like the first. I don't ever wanna get to a place where I just feel like I know what's going on. 'Cause I won't. Not only is this person doing it for the first time in that body, I'm also brand new to their dying and I'm a guest and so I always want to show up in awe and in surrender and in nervous excitement for what it is that I may find.

Some in the medical world see death doulas as outsiders—unregulated, unlicensed, and unfamiliar. There’s also a deeper tension: when you’ve been trained to treat and to fix, the presence of someone focused on comfort and letting go can feel like giving up. It challenges the very culture of medicine, where death is too often seen as the enemy rather than a natural part of life.

Shoshana: There's some in the medical system that don't exactly like having death doulas around. How do you advocate for your clients and also for your profession?

Alua: I think it, it's starting to change. I think there's a lot of misconception about what it is that we actually do, which leads to some of the challenges with it. And also I will say that there are folks out there that. Call themselves death doulas without doing any of the inner work or the, the personal work necessary to prepare them for the role. And that's where we end up getting into trouble. I think advocating for the work feels easy when folks hear about what it is, like actually what it is, and say, I wish that you were there when my father died. I wish that you were there when my brother was ill. I wish that you were there at some point. It's hard to deny the impact and the necessity of it when you're thinking about the humans involved and not just the, the bottom line. And by that I mean the dollars, you know, when we're thinking about people and supporting people and making sure people have as holistic care through a really difficult, painful, thick time in their lives, why wouldn't we invite everybody into it?

In 2015, Alua founded Going with Grace, a death doula training and end-of-life planning organization.

Shoshana: It seems like the field of death doula work is really growing. I'm seeing more and more people drawn to it. People bring it up all the time to me. Of course, I live in a bubble around this stuff. But from your perspective, is that growth real? Are you noticing a broader awareness or a shift in how people understand what death doulas do?

Alua: Significantly. And also I may live in a bubble, but I'll just tell you in our little bubble at Going With Grace, we've trained almost 3000 doulas in 58 countries. So that's not, you know, that's one training organization and there are several. So if we can multiply that and then expand it to all the people that don't seek formal training, or the people that have learned sitting at the feet of grandmothers for decades, or the folks that have served in this capacity for somebody in their life and didn't know what to call it, but have gone on to assume the role time. And again, it's definitely growing. In our training courses we have, we have a lot of medicine folks. There are doctors and their surgeons and their nurses and their EMTs and their folks that are coming through our course

Shoshana: Really?

Alua: Oh, yeah. Yeah. So many of them. I'm so happy. So many of them.

Shoshana: God. I, I have, I had no idea.

Alua: Orthopedic surgeons and like, yeah, like there are people coming, there are people coming and so it's starting to shift. It's slow,

Shoshana: The, the fact that an orthopedic surgeon came to your course like that is mind blowing. 'cause those guys, they're kind of like, I'm a bone technician, I fix bones. You know what I mean? Like, they're, they’re very rarely I have found like super in touch with anything beyond, let's just take you to the OR and fix that hip, you know?

Alua: Can I tell you a funny story though? So, uh, we have a death meditation in the course, and we journey into, you know, the body eventually, coming apart and flesh withering and bones withering, et cetera. And I used to say. That the tendons have come apart and the bones have gone this way and the bones of feet have gone this way, the hands, and so the death meditation's over and this person walks up to me afterwards and said, you know, it was really beautiful. Thank you so much for that experience. But those are ligaments, not tendons. I said, oh, okay. Thanks. I took the note.

<music>

Since starting End Well, meeting Alua and becoming friends, and really thinking about the ways we can best support dying people and their loved ones, I've really found myself fascinated with death doulas and the work that they do. And recently, I decided to learn more.

Shoshana: So I don't know if I told you this. But I recently had the chance to do a death doula training course. Did I tell you this?

More about that...after the break. You're listening to Before We Go. We'll be right back.

SECOND AD BREAK

Act 2

Earlier this year, I got a chance to learn more about Death Doulas and the work that they do.

Shoshana Chat: I got an email publicizing a course that the Iliff School of Theology was putting on to create like a certification for death doulas. And there was a, a practicum, you know, portion of it where you obviously you have to do work in the community, but the coursework itself was, was offered online. And so I decided to enroll in it, which I don't know, I, uh, sort of didn't know exactly what to expect and I saw this as, as like a cool educational experience

Shoshana Chat: I was surprised at how much I learned. I sort of thought I could fall back on my medical knowledge and my experience of taking care of patients in a clinical framework, but that's not what death doulas are about, that's not what the training is. So much of it was knowing yourself and you know, finding the right self-care practices you have to be. Okay. Yourself in those situations. So, so much of it was reflecting on your own mortality, being really comfortable with that, recognizing what your emotional or psychological triggers are, because you will, will walk into any number of situations of family members who have challenging dynamics or different values and beliefs than you do, or, you know, are just outright fighting with each other. And how do you walk beside that and still do your job and show up for the person in the bed and do your best to manage, again, not being a therapist, not being a, you know, a medical provider. And how do you offer, support, when things are tricky.

Shoshana: I was surprised by how much of the course was about knowing, getting to know myself and self care, which we talk a lot about, but in really different ways. It, it made me think differently about what it means to show up for other people and, and to like be in my own body. Does that surprise you at all?

Alua: No, and I'm also so happy to hear that this was your experience at Going With Grace. We also teach the work through the lens of the self first in order to be effective. You have to have spent time on your own because in the absence of that awareness, you'll just bleed into the space between the two and not recognize that it's your stuff that's in the space and not be able to show up for somebody else because your stuff is all over the place. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so for like every module of the course, even when we're talking about advanced planning and advanced directives, well, how does this apply to you? Have you done your own? You know that saying people can only meet you as deeply as they met themselves. Yes. I actually believe people can only meet you as deeply as you've met yourself. When we're doing death care, how can I ask anybody to go places that I'm not willing to go? You know, like we must open that portal. I must be willing to go there. Otherwise I can't meet you there. And my job is to meet people where they are. So I gotta do my work. In tandem with the, the practical and the knowledge, like must also deal with my inner work.

Shoshana: Yeah. So there was this moment in the training where we, we were watching a cat video.

Shoshana Chat: And not like the funny cat memes, but actually watching a video of a rowdy kitten who's jumping around and scratching.

Cat Video 1: I wanted to share this video because it's a beautiful representation of co-regulation.

Shoshana Chat: The assignment was to watch how the older cat behaved around the kitten, and by moving slowly and calmly and purring it allowed the kitten to calm down and mellow out.

Cat Video 2: Watch it as it goes in slowly and down low, and as it continues to persist, even though the kitten is clearly batting it away.

Shoshana Chat: Now, I don't know anything about cats. I don't, you know, I don't even like cats, honestly. But it was fascinating to see that the just presence and energy of the adult cat was really soothing and calming to the kitten.

Shoshana Chat: So the whole idea being that the way that we show up our body language, the way we use our voice, you know, how we're moving in space, connecting with other humans makes a difference.

Shoshana: And I first was like, I cannot believe we're watching cat videos right now during this death doula training. But it really stuck with me as this beautiful metaphor for presence. And I wonder what does presence mean to you in the spaces that you enter? I, I imagine it's a big, a big thing.

Alua: It's everything. It's everything. First of all, I love that that's what you all are doing with cats, but it's also so accurate. When I'm thinking about showing up into a space for dying, like I must enter myself first since my job is to meet people where they are, I have to be flexible enough in order to go there. But the only way I can be flexible enough is if I'm grounded in my own body. When I'm in my head, when I'm worried about what they'll think or what I'm gonna meet in there, I'm not in my body, you know? I have to, I have to stay grounded. I have to hold my own center. Also, since we find. So much emotional, chaos isn't the right word, but a lot of emotional depth in the spaces in which we walk into. I have to find ways to touch my own center consistently. And the only way I can do that is by staying present, you know? And by staying like with this moment, I also find presence to be like the core of how we approach our mortality anyway. Uh, there's no way I can tell what my fears are where am I feeling my grief? Where am I feeling my fear? How's it showing up in my body as opposed to the things that I think about it or expect it to be? But rather, how does it feel? How does it feel?

Shoshana: Yeah, I've known this about myself, but this class really brought it home for me that I spend so much time up here.

Up here – in my brain.

Shoshana: Right? Even though I do a lot of movement, I love like physical activity. I know a lot about the body and what happens and all those things, but it to really like,it got me like feeling my feelings, which it seems like such a weird thing to say 'cause I'm 45 years old, but like it was just this really profound experience and totally not what I was expecting.

Alua: Yeah. Yay. Yay.

Shoshana: And like most people would hear this and say like, yeah, duh, but like, doctors aren't trained in those things. We don't necessarily, even though this is intuitive to a regular human, like we don't think about these things in terms of how we interact with patients and families. And I think maybe we should, there's so much of the work that's just learning how to connect with people, especially in a time when you might be meeting them on the worst day of their life. So I just, I found it just totally invaluable. And I wanna figure out how can we bring this type of training, not necessarily to become a death doula, but the elements of it that are applicable to clinicians. How do we do more of that? It would make us better doctors, certainly I think it would, improve the patient experience and hopefully. Allow us to tap back into why we first decided to go to medical school.

Alua: I would love it. I would love it . 'cause I think the, part of the, the role of the doctor, there's space for it. Like if people could just even sit with that mortality for a little bit, it would help a lot. It would help a lot. Yeah. It would make space for people to. To have these really strong reactions when you tell them that the medicine isn't working anymore. To understand how anger shows up in grief, to see how challenging it is to. Take in that big amount of information at one time and try to process it. Try to like filter it through emotional body also before it even gets back up to the head. Like all those things would help doctors a lot. I would love it.

Shoshana: Yeah. And just this idea of sitting with suffering and we don't have to talk and we don't have to fix, and it's okay to just sit in the present moment and say, I'm here. And the reality is, you know, your cancer is no longer curable, but we can still take care of you.

Alua: Yeah, that's a beautiful way to put it. There is, I mean, there is no fixing death, you know? There's no fixing grief and one thing. When I'm with dying a lot, it just reminds me of that. Sometimes in order to show up for my fellow human, I just need to show up 'cause I can't actually make it better. I think I might, but my presence is what makes it better. Showing up is what makes it better.

CREDITS

Next time on the show. In April of 2016, actor and comedian Patton Oswalt walked into his bedroom and discovered that his wife had died in her sleep. But he says, that wasn’t the worst day of his life. The worst day was the next day, when he had to tell their seven year old daughter that her mother had died.

Patton: My mind just went to Alice. I’m like how to I protect her? What do I do now? How do I make sure she’s okay. So that’s right where my brain went.

But experts want us to know, most children who experience grief and loss will go on to lead happy, healthy lives. And there are things we can do to help.

Julie: And really what we tell parents or caregivers, especially of those who are grieving, is that the most important thing they can do is literally to bear witness to their child's pain.

That’s next week on Before We Go.